Episode Twelve: Small Commercial Projects

The crew dives into the world of small commercial projects in this episode. Nick, Paul, and Nino explore the nuances and challenges of taking on projects that are too small for larger firms but too large for sole proprietors. They discuss the importance of defining commercial projects, understanding the impact of the Ohio Building Code, and navigating the complexities of mixed-use spaces. The team shares insights from recent projects, emphasizing the need for early engagement with design professionals and the benefits of a coordinated approach with engineers and contractors. They also provide valuable advice for investors on how to streamline timelines, reduce costs, and ensure successful project execution.

Show Notes: Lsiten to Episode Six, Working Smarter with 3D Scanning:

 

 

 

Nick: Welcome to the ArcFluence podcast where we talk about how design impacts the way we live, work, and invest. I'm Nick Karakaian, your host, and with me as always are my two amazing co hosts, Paul Fatkins and Nino Samardzic.

Nino: Pretty good. How are you?

Nick: Today we are gonna be talking about a fun topic that you guys are experts in for episode 12.

Nick: Can you tell us a little bit about it? Just us, not you. I'm going to have my comment as usual,

Paul: but yeah, we're going to talk about smaller scale commercial projects, right? The projects that, um, a larger firm might not necessarily want to take on. Um, and a project that, uh, The scale of it for a single, you know, person firm, like again, just the sole proprietor architect might be too much for him to take on.

Paul: So kind of somewhere in that sweet spot where if you have a couple of people in your firm, like we have, it would be perfect for us. And obviously, um, the price point we would give is highly beneficial compared to like a larger firm.

Nino: Yeah. Because larger firm, as you guys know, they have bigger overheads and that's what actually they cannot go past.

Nino: Yeah, they have, uh,

Nick: project minimums and Paul's old firm actually had like, it was,

Paul: it was, it was high. It was high. And it also depends on the potential for further jobs too. So the other thing is they don't want to take on. Uh, one off project where we're only going to do one of them and that's it. Goodbye, I'll never see you again.

Paul: And

Nino: yeah, and devote the stuff just on that project, plus, once again, I think the biggest obstacle is just overheads. Overheads will just actually kill them. Because you have to go through all the same procedures, you're going to burn, burn that money as a firm through the small project pretty quickly.

Nick: Well, you're also, when you have these multi million dollar projects, um, you're going to have Sometimes you're going to have to hire, right? Yeah. Hire. Sometimes

Nino: you have to hire people. And if this

Nick: is a two year project, I mean, if there's, if it's a franchise and we're building multiple locations, now we're giving work stability to these new hires.

Nick: So we have, like, we're going to have work for 10 years for you. Exactly. And that's why

Nino: this, and you will also see like a quick. Quite often that like a bigger firm or people from the bigger firm will actually refer to like a, uh, smaller firm or firm. They're just ready to take off such as an Ashklon's

Nick: right.

Nick: Yeah. We actually do get small commercial projects from other architecture firms that the project's just too small for them. So let's talk about what makes a commercial project smaller. Um, what are some of the challenges that we face with that? I guess we can talk about, um, you know, what, what's the definition of an actual commercial project because we do residential, like we have four plexes and we're doing a 12 plex here.

Nick: Um, there, there are a lot of different types of projects that are maybe residential housing, but still considered commercial projects.

Paul: Yeah, I, I think we start there, right? Um, with what, what the difference is or what the trigger is for the residential side. And then basically if you have anything beyond that, it's pretty much commercial.

Paul: Um, but for residential, you have anything above three units. So as soon as you get into that four unit category, The fourth unit added on triggers the Ohio building code and you're out of the residential code at that point.

Nick: So when I go down to the city to submit permits for our clients, if we have a triplex, a duplex or a single family home, I'm going to the residential side permit submission and it's a, it's a specific team that deals strictly with those.

Nick: If we have a four unit or just commercial, you know, institutional projects. We go to the other side where it's all commercial based. And obviously there's, there's a, there's different things that we have to, the boxes that we have to check when we do.

Nino: Yeah. One, one big things to understand is between these two is.

Nino: As you guys already mentioned, one is going to have application of residential code of higher. The second is going to have implication of, uh, Ohio building code and, uh, Ohio building code is just more stringent.

Nick: And it was just updated. Yeah, it was

Nino: just updated. And it will actually just, you know, require like, uh, bigger clearances, uh, will have like a more restriction on fire ratings.

Nino: Uh, you're going to actually have implication of the ADA, which is American with Disability Act. So it means all your like a restroom or your approaches to the building. Need to be, uh, ADA compliant. So there was like a multiple things. You're actually stepping in a new arena that you have to like pay attention and, and, you know, uh, just have someone who has a good knowledge of the OBC, uh, to actually help you professional, who's going to help you navigate through the process.

Nick: I think another important thing to say too, is. When we were working with commercial projects, and again, that can be a four unit, fourplex, just apartments. Now we're also, we're bringing in additional professionals to the scope of work here. We're bringing in engineers. So we're going to have our plumbing, electrical, and mechanical drawings be done by a separate team that specifically Even

Nino: sometimes technology, sometimes structural as well.

Nino: Yeah. Yeah.

Nick: And

Nino: civil. Yeah. Exactly. Civil. So it was like, uh, it's just like, uh, uh, it's just another level of standards that you need to satisfy. And in majority of cases, you will need help by the design professionalist.

Paul: There are some exceptions too. I know that, um, you're still technically under the OBC, but there's exceptions where you can follow certain things within the residential code.

Paul: Even though you're a four unit building. But if it depends, because if you're, if you have shared egress component, then all of a sudden you're locked into the R2 and forget it, you can't touch anything in the residential code. So all of this stuff has to be navigated, but as soon as you hit that fourth unit, you're primarily in the OBC.

Nino: Yeah. And one thing's worth mentioning is you're still going to be residential. There is, as Paul mentioned, it's going to, because. You will see, depending on what is the use of the building, they have classification of the use groups. For example, if you have office, there's going to be be used for a business.

Nino: If you have actually four place is going to be probably like about R2, R2 or R3 or R3 use. So. And based on these categories, there was like a different, um, set of rules that actually apply to that project. And that's why the first thing that your design professionalist is going to establish is what is the use group for your project and what is the construction type.

Nino: And these two elements will actually guide all the requirements.

Nick: So we can start talking about a couple of our recent projects. I think that, that'll help us kind of understand a basic scope of work and our process. Paul, um, I know you were very involved with Be Aligned.

Paul: So, smaller, uh, conversion of office space to office space. That's a, which was highly beneficial.

Paul: Cause anytime you get into conversion from one use to another, that'll also trigger additional things that have to be done and things that have to be met. You can't necessarily. Grandfather, anything in, you know, you're going to have to update everything at that point. So it was an office space to an office space.

Paul: Um, and we went in and I think it was only about 3000 square feet total. So we're talking relatively smaller, you know, space. And, um, You know, they do some chiropractic care there. They have like this vibe plate, like area that like shakes you and gets the blood flowing. And we

Nick: needed the specs on those machines.

Nick: Yeah. And they have

Paul: like an x ray system that's set up to like take some basic x rays so they can determine like the best course of treatment and stuff like that. Uh, but yeah, that was one of the recent projects we did up in Delaware County. That went through and got approved and is in construction at this point.

Paul: So yeah,

Nick: now

Paul: we found that

Nick: project through the contractor, correct?

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. So we did, uh, another project before Which was a smaller like 1500 1300 square foot. So like half the size would be aligned. Uh was bamboo drinks And um, it was just a small scale like, um Um, what Asian drink place where like the bubble, bubble tea, bubble tea.

Paul: Yeah. Oh, cool. Makes me miss New York city. Yeah. And that was, that was in, that was in a shopping center over off of, um, near upper Arlington. I forget it was a Bethel road, I believe. Yep. Right off Bethel. Um, so that one's actually done and they're opened and, and functioning.

Nino: Actually, I remember one more project that we actually did when we actually converted the former fast food place into the liquor store.

Nino: The drive through? Drive through, exactly. Was that was the

Paul: one that, the one that Nina helped out on? Yeah, so

Nino: it's actually, the interesting thing about that one is actually the, the change of the use. So that's like a one thing also that you have to pay attention. Then if you're switching from one use to another, then difference.

Nino: Set of rules may apply there. So that was like a good example of that, but also what is going to be easier if you actually switching from one use to another, but. There is also some certain requests to maybe have like a former residential being turned into some kind of school. So that's actually going to trigger completely different use from, to switch from one use to another.

Nino: So, and especially in this situation, you're definitely going to need the help by design professionalists.

Paul: Yeah, we had a client that was a single family home. And they wanted to buy it and convert it into a private school. And you know, for whatever reason, I mean, like for us, it's like, yeah, no brainer automatically you're triggered into the OBC.

Paul: You're, you're following commercial requirements. It's basically a school. That's what you're running. That's the use, right? They, for whatever reason thought, well, it's a private school. It's private. Like we can just do whatever we want. We can just buy this house and use it for our purposes. And it's like, well, no, because the city knows what you're doing.

Paul: Cause we have to submit stuff to the city. And if you tell them, yeah, we're renovating the single family house and we're going to use it as a school, they're not just going to be like, okay, sure. Do whatever you want. Cause it's a private school. So yeah, the main reason for

Nino: that, what is not the same because the occupant load is not the same.

Nino: If you have like a single family residential home, you're talking about four or five person max. If you have a school, you're going to have. 30 people in it, and it's not the same. You

Paul: can have assembly, assembly spaces. Exactly.

Nino: It's not same for five people to escape the building in case of the emergency or 30 people can get jammed in a door that is too narrow, can start falling down the stairs that is too sharp and steep and not wide enough.

Nino: And there is a million things. And the reason. The reason why this code are actually proposed because of the accident that happens. So that's for why we actually respecting them because you see the multiple accident, especially involving the fire that's occurring, occurring every day in United States and codes are written only because of these bad experiences that people live through.

Nino: Went through the life changing event or losing their life into these buildings. So there's the major reason higher occupants load usually comes with the commercial projects. And there's the reason why code is more stringent.

Paul: Yeah. One of the, one of the things that's actually changed in the recent codes speaking about adapting to things that happen, events that happen, um, they actually now have.

Paul: The ability within the code for locking facilities down and keep keeping people in. So like Nina was talking about egress and get getting people out. Now the code is also adapting because these events happen where it's like, it's a different situation. You actually need to lock and secure the people and that's the safest shelter in place.

Paul: That's the safest thing for them. So all of these codes, like Nina said, it's all about life safety and now they've actually started to adapt some of them in the newer versions of code. To actually shelter in place and keep people in versus having them egress out.

Nino: That's just one good example. We have like a several, like a tornado warnings recently.

Nino: So if you have like a 30 kids in this building, you have to shelter them in space in case of the emergency. So that's why, why is once again. Why we have to obey the code and requirements.

Nick: Yeah, it's, it's funny you mentioned, um, uh, turning a house into a business. It's, it's becoming very popular because people are now, um, we're, we're actually working on an event space in Franklinton.

Nick: And it's a residential home on Walnut. Yes. And basically, we're Paul is going to be going before the commission to help approval and start the whole zoning process here. But we got preliminary drawings down and we know right now that because it's becoming an assembly space that those existing floor joists They're not going to be okay.

Nick: We're going to have to put some steel or beam reinforcement in those floors because now it is going to be a commercial space. We are no longer going to be using this as a single family home. High loads, more people just

Nino: stamping and walking there. Then you have to provide ramp ADA accessibility. All new restrooms you're doing should be ADA accessible.

Nick: And we have to make that appealing to the curb.

Nino: So

Nick: the city approves the design, um, so there's, there's a number of different things we have to consider, not just the function of it, but the, the curb appeal of it as well.

Nino: One, one another things I will drop there is the, You will see a lot of examples of that.

Nino: It's a mixed use when you actually have apartment, uh, on a second floor and a first floor, it can be any space from the little, like a, I don't know, like a small store selling the shoes to the, like a, you know, fast food restaurant. And that's also what you're going to see. And in this, uh, occasions, we call it mix use because you have two different uses, like sometimes they're separated by floor.

Nino: Sometimes they're separated by the walls, but usually we're in that occasions you have to pay attention is fire separation between uses. Sometimes it's not trigger some, there are some uses that can actually Cohabit next, cohabit next to each other without fire separation, but in majority cases, you will need to treat those separately and, and, and, uh, fire separate them.

Nick: Yeah. Actually, Paul, we're working on Mount Vernon right now. Um, that is a restaurant space on the first floor that has two apartments above. And it's interesting too, is that in the past, that building, I think it was the second floor was not residential. It was storage offices, offices, offices.

Paul: So that one was a unique project because it's kind of in a residential area and they had, um, a variance that they basically had approval for, but it was a limited use.

Paul: Approval where literally it said you can yeah sure you can do this with the building and that's it You can use the bottom floor for a nightclub and you can use the upper floors for an office How long ago

Nick: how long ago was that?

Paul: Those like it's seventies or eighties.

Nick: And does that hold true? Yeah.

Paul: Unless they approve.

Paul: So now that's part of the process that the client has to go through is, is they have to reapply to zoning and say, well, you know, we want to put in a restaurant, not a nightclub, you know, in lower space, it's going to be open during daytime hours, not in the middle of the night, like bar situation. And then we want to do residential units up above versus offices.

Paul: And they have to get approval for that specific use on zoning. Yeah. Cause they're locked into the other use that's already on the books.

Nick: It's kind of been a fun process for me because I'm working with the client to get the specs for like the hood and the kitchen equipment because our. Engineers are mechanical engineers.

Nick: Electrical engineers need that information to put in the drawings because city is getting very specific on what they're looking for. When we're designing those types of commercial spaces.

Nino: And, and as soon as you have commercial kitchen, is there like a, the, is it. What is that department that you have to go through that with the food?

Nino: Yeah, health department. Health department, exactly. So the health department, there is like a, I know there is a special applications. It's not super complicated, but that's something you have to go through and satisfy all the requirements and that there's certain

Paul: finishes that have to be. Have to be easily cleanable and, you know, water resistant.

Paul: You have to have certain handblashing stations, greasy

Nino: scepter and all this stuff. Yep.

Nick: But going back to Nino's conversation about doing mixed. S so this building that on mount Vernon, That was a bar and an office spaces. It was more appealing and more valuable to our client to have apartments up there because it kind of diversifies his portfolio, protects his asset.

Nick: Yes. Um, so we had that conversation. We, we went, we, we were having a conversation of, can we fit three in here? Can we fit four in here? I'm like, These are really, then they become, you know, like studios. And I don't think you're going to get the value that you're actually looking for, but

Nino: similar to Walnut, he was also looking for maybe possibility, having the, uh, having this additional, which we did, we had one, we have actually one unit, so he can actually, you know, if, uh, If, if that commercial space starts a little bit slow, he always can diversify portfolio of the property and, and make it workable.

Nino: So

Nick: we did a clever thing on that one. So the event space where he's going to do performing arts, um, the apartment has this door that randomly opens. It can, it's a fire rated door that can lock. And now you can open this door to a Juliet balcony that overlooks the stage.

Nino: So you almost like, I have like a, you're a separate, like a, like a box where you actually like a, like a VI, VIP person can actually watch the performance, stand up comedy or God knows what.

Nick: Yeah. So. That can be just kept to the theater or or he can rent it out as an Airbnb. Like he has a lot of different options there, which I thought was really cool options.

Nino: Exactly. They're very good example, but we also have to deal with this fire separation, which is in this case is two hours Fire separation between event space, which is as Paul mentioned is assembly and assembly is the one of these, like, uh, which is one of the more stringent, uh, because it's just a high number of the people on a small space.

Nino: So occupant load is really high.

Paul: What's the square footage for this walnut project? I don't recall it like what it's under 2000. It's like two. Yeah, it's around. Yeah, it's under

Nino: 2000. But the, but the assembly space is, uh, occupant load is over 50, which automatically triggers two exits out. Yeah. So I believe that, uh, assembly.

Nino: It's that, um, it's close to one, 1000 square feet is the, is the event space.

Paul: Yeah.

Nick: And it's not just two exits. It's one is an ADA accessible and the other one has a refuge, an area of refuge,

Nino: area of refuge. And there is like a, yeah, that's, that's like a things that you guys, there is all just a lot of in and outs.

Nino: And what's that's I'm thinking, why is design professionalist. It's very important. We have like a previous podcast with the gentleman who was doing affordable housing explaining how Architectural thing just happened to be artfluence help them navigate through the very complicated process of the approval for this one It's even more complicated and it's much easier if you deal with these items right in the front than during construction.

Nino: Oh,

Nick: absolutely

Paul: Yeah Well, I was just curious the size because all of these projects that we're talking about I think the smallest one You It's just over a thousand square feet, 1, 200 and the largest one is around 3, 000 exactly for all of these different projects that we're talking about. We're not talking about a massive amount of space.

Paul: I mean, heck, like. My house, my home square footage, well, no, it's not bigger, but I mean, like it's comparable, right? It's, it fits within that range from the one to 3000. It fits within that range.

Nino: I think you can actually, uh, change your house easily for your school, man, how big it is. I think your

Nick: point is if a firm has a.

Nick: 25, 000 or a 50, 000 minimum, where they're not even going to consider a project. Well, that and

Paul: all of these projects have to follow the code, no matter what. Right. So like all of these new, these things, the requirements that we're talking about, They're held to the same standards. Yes, it has to meet the standards.

Paul: I mean, if

Nino: I, if I'm like just going, like working for a big firm or an enormous project, Like you still have to put like a cover sheet, you have to put all these reference sheets, you have to put life safety sheets, uh, you know, you still have to produce decent document and with the overhead that this firm is applying to their like, uh, into their like, uh, the, the rates, how they actually end up including like a, what, 15 to 20 percent profit.

Nino: They're gonna, or they're going to charge you very high prices. Which smaller firm are more flexible with or they just going to lose the money, right? And therefore I was like a for them is like a to just and plus keep in mind these people working on big projects They already have devil devoted stuff now I have to pull out someone from the big project to work on something very small

Nick: Yeah, it's not worth hiring a new person for the small project and if you're pulling off somebody to do that for a larger project, now you're putting a huge contract in jeopardy in some cases, which you don't want to mess with because that could, that could impact your business for the next five to 10 years.

Nick: I mean, I'm

Nino: project manager, my project, I will never let my stuff go to waste. Just like a sprinkler around because I would like them concentrated on this big stuff. Of course. Because it's such easy to lose the grasp of the project. So so that's the reason why you will have to like, uh, by we actually, I actually advise personally to go look at this meat side, no one person, one business trying to handle everything by himself.

Nino: We all know that it doesn't work, especially in this modern environment and especially in the environment such Columbus is when the, when the code requirements are very important. Not just code Yeah, but zoning as well.

Paul: E even the recent code change, um, one of the things that we were dealing with, with one of our four unit buildings that, uh, came up, so the 2024 code, the, the existing building code, they actually like specify, you either have to do a prescriptive.

Paul: Um, approach with the existing building, a work area approach or a performance approach in order to meet the requirements within the existing building code. So there's three different compliance paths that you can take and that's something that's new. Before when we were in the older code, you didn't have the existing building code where you had these three different compliance paths that were in play.

Paul: You could just submit a set of drawings and you were good and whatever it's existing. Okay.

Nick: And the city, the city won't advise you on it either. You, you're going to have to lean on your design professionals to help you make that decision.

Paul: Yeah.

Nino: And another thing is important. What Ryan mentioned previous podcast is the relationships that the design professional has, has with all these officials, it is zoning.

Nino: And, uh, in, uh, in a building department and, uh, you will see and many of our clients will mention such a good relationship, especially that Nick and Paul maintain with, uh, with, uh, both departments in the city of Columbus. So that's going to be because we're all human relationship are keen and important.

Nino: And that's really important like to make just entire process be more smoother for your, for your small, uh, It's a shop or, or like a little like a restaurant or, or even for this chiropractic, uh, the, the office, which is some kind of the medical office building, it's pretty much medical office building.

Nino: Yeah. So, so it's nothing big, nothing large for them is just to open the business and run their business. And we are there to just to help them to go through all this procedure and make space safe. Yeah. Well designed, usable, and one that is going to age well and is just going to satisfy multiple uses as we talk about the walnut can be three different uses for one building.

Nick: So let's do an exercise. I'm an investor. I have a commercial property. I'm going to be changing the use from a restaurant, from an office space to a restaurant. And potentially have an apartment or two above. I want to engage an architect and get some help for drawings, um, to make this happen. Now, obviously I'm probably going to be borrowing some money.

Nick: I don't have all the cash to invest in it. I'm going to be getting loans and stuff. So, when, uh, When do I engage my design professional? Um, what timeline should I expect depending on some of these variables that I just threw out at you? And then when are we looking to bring in our contractor? What, what are some of my expectations with funding?

Nick: And I can, I can speak to the funding portion a little bit.

Nino: So I can maybe start like, and Paul will just follow up when I'm going to engage the design professional. The sooner, the better, the sooner, the better day one day, exactly. They want, because every property is unique regardless, even if your neighbor is doing something that think it's, I'm just going to repeat it, your set of the, of the constraints and the, and opportunities.

Nino: And many people, when I say like, Oh, I have to hire this one. Guy, he just gonna charge me for something. Maybe I can sketch by myself, me and my wife at home, but I will not only, I will not start conversation with the constraints. I will start conversation with opportunities. We are in this business for so long.

Nino: We know what we're doing. Uh, and also we can pass all the, our previous clients who have such a satisfaction and we just discovered new stuff that just changing the height of the, of the space can make space much bigger. Well, nice organized space can just explore territories that you didn't have in your mind and just make your property better looking than your neighbors.

Nick: So. I want to hire you Nino, how long, what should I expect in terms of, or, and this is to you Paul too. Yeah, I

Paul: was going to add in as well to his unique comment, right? A lot of these spaces are existing. Yeah. There's something that's there. It's not a piece of dirt that we're, you know, if you want to do that, great.

Paul: We can do that. Greenfield. Yeah. But majority of people, like you said, Nick, there might be an investor, they have certain things in mind. And so like they're buying a property that's run down, they want to do this conversion on it, right? It was office and, but they see potential here as something else. So it's an existing building that's already built and was up and running at some point, now we're coming in to do this work.

Paul: So that's also what makes these projects so unique, and there's certain things that we have to respond to based on what's there already. So I mean like that factors into it as well, it's not a clean slate where we can do whatever.

Nino: Yeah, and first things at the village. Which will impact timeline

Paul: as well.

Paul: Sure.

Nino: First thing as we, as an architect is we should actually go, uh, scan the space to see what is there. And then we actually propose design schedule.

Nick: And if you guys want to hear more about our scanning, our very sophisticated scanning process, we have, uh, another podcast on that, that Danny will reference in the show notes.

Nino: Yes. And the design schedule will actually tells you like, uh, it always can be customized basics on, on, on how urgent is needed to project to be done. Okay. So I, you know, he can go from like, uh, from one month to several months, depending on the size complexity of the projects, different parties being involved.

Nino: But every designer, every architect should be actually putting the like a design schedule. And this design schedule usually is like a, for a small project doesn't always necessary to have these three important phase, which is SDDD and CD. Can you explain those terms? Yes. So SD is the somatic design. And in this phase, we are pretty much starting with the bubble diagram with the, setting up the program, understanding the client needs.

Nino: And then we actually going through different iterations and the options, then we're going to meet with the client and we get the feedbacks and adjust our initial design in our initial understanding.

Paul: Essentially some basic design occurs. Exactly.

Nino: I see like a first sketches and this sketches was usually involved, not only the layout of the floor plan, maybe it's also involved some, uh, design features, maybe some first 3d looks, uh, exterior elevations.

Nino: Uh, window placement, maybe check even material representation and suggestions. Maybe some spaces will even require to maybe engage our interior design team as well. So this is going to be like a first things when we actually developing our UDI something more. Soon as a client agrees, like, okay, this is, this is direction we're going, we're doing the, the SD sign off.

Nick: That process on a small commercial project typically takes us, what, a couple of weeks?

Nino: Yes. It can go, like, pretty quick, depending on the complexity of the project. But a small project can go pretty quickly. And then

Paul: Also, depending on the client, if the client has A million ideas, right? There might be some back and forth.

Paul: So if they sign off on something that we propose, great. We move forward, right? Otherwise we go back and we revise and then, you know, have another conversation with the client. And what about this?

Nino: The next phase, it's a design development. That means RSD are like a, so we know what we're doing. The plan is developed.

Nino: Excuse me. And, uh, now it's time to get a little bit more involved or our consultants, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, technology, structural, structurally probably going to be also early involved in the SD, uh, or, or, or, uh, MEP as well, especially if you have certain units loads, we have some basic understanding But now in the dd everything start merging, uh together and we're going through the process of the first coordination

Paul: Yeah, and so like you mentioned office to restaurant.

Paul: Well, if you have an office use there's certain electrical demand That's coming from office Maybe like a server room might be like your highest demand because it's constantly running might have its own dedicated You You know, cooling system, circuit, yeah, and, and circuitry for, you know, or, and backup power.

Paul: You could have an uninterrupted power supply that's providing power if the power goes off or a generator. So there's things for an office, but a restaurant, heck, maybe it's a sustainable, you know, the owner has sustainable principles in mind and they don't want to have any gas equipment. And so all their equipment, their fryers, their cooktops, it's all electric.

Paul: I mean, the demand for electric is going to be a lot higher for all these pieces of equipment. Right. So it's like, that's a conversation to have with the electrical engineer at that point for your HVAC. Same thing. Your exhaust is gonna pull air out and you have to push air back in to supplement what you're pulling out for the exhaust.

Paul: And all of a sudden it becomes much more complicated because an office is a very different environment for, you know, your mechanical use. Then a restaurant. So again, like all at that point, all of these people are coming into the conversation and talking about, well, from an office to a restaurant, what do we have to do?

Nick: And I know for some of our restaurant projects, we have the conversation of how many fixtures, what type of equipment, because when we are adding sinks and bathrooms and, and all these things that require plumbing, um, we have to, and it's, and it's a building, you know, it's a, it's a, I hate the word strip mall, but if it's a, You know, a center of a commercial center from the 1970s, then we need to check the utilities.

Nick: Like what is the water line that's coming in? Does it? It's probably undersized if it was used for something else other than a restaurant. So now we need to look at increasing the size of that. waterline.

Nino: And that's why it's a key to have all your design members involved as early as possible so they can actually scan the space, they can do the walkthroughs, they can actually assess the existing condition.

Nino: And in that case, they know what is going to be next step. And also like one things I forgot to mention during the SD phase is also like, uh, Design team can also offer you like a first glimpse of the potential cost of all changes that you have to do earlier on. So in that case, you can see if budget that you dedicated to it is enough for all these changes because there is always this like a Gain between the scope and the budget and you're

Nick: talking predominantly for construction costs because Our design our design stuff is usually locked in on smaller scale projects at that point So

Nino: but that's something like that you have basic in the same It was like sometimes our wishes are bigger than our budget is so we have to reduce the scope

Nick: And it gives you the opportunity like hey, we don't have those that funding correctly So now we can we can modify

Nino: and you avoid like as paul mentioned it could like as first you have some old circuit circuitry You And you need more circles like for your electrical power.

Nino: And suddenly that's a huge expense. Now you have to maybe shrink on your, on your, like, finishes. You maybe use a little bit more economical side in order to afford which is something that is now you're understanding priorities in your project and dd is also really important because Now all these layers starts overlapping now We're having something that is called coordination process and this is during the dd client still can Have good input on it and make some changes

Nick: paul and I actually just had a conversation on You You know, the apartments restaurant project where that panel for the restaurant was in the corridor to the apartments that's fire rated,

Paul: make some updates and ended up in the corridor.

Paul: And in some cases we could

Nick: reuse the panel, but in this particular case, it doesn't make sense. Well, there's

Paul: an existing panel in a certain spot and the only place to get the egress out and put that corridor. Was in the location that the panel was so it's like well if we keep it there now all of a sudden It's in this corridor for the residential unit.

Paul: Yeah, you know

Nick: doesn't affect design cost but does impact your construction cost. Exactly

Nino: And then after we actually solidified like our dd phase And when everything is night hanky dory we have base and client has understanding with all outlets requirements with all these Hvac requirements structural for example, one thing We see quite often when existing space, we always try to have these big open spans, less walls, that always going to trigger some additional beams and stuff.

Nino: Soon as we actually, and client is aware of that, now we're going to this, I will call it CD phase, which is construction document phase, or I call this focus phase, when actually design team, everything is dial up, DD is sign off, and now we're going to the final development of the document. Yeah. About how,

Paul: and this is, this is the document that communicates everything to the person that's actually gonna do the work on site.

Paul: Exactly. And this is what the city's gonna be proving during their approval process and what the city reviews and approves. Exactly.

Nick: So on for on average, for our smaller commercial projects, what, what's that timeline typically look like to the best of your,

Paul: depending on the size can be a few, few weeks, up to a few months,

Nick: you know, but for us.

Nick: I mean, I don't know any projects that we've had. I guess maybe I can think of one off the top of my head that had been a few months.

Nino: Yeah. It's usually a couple of weeks, like a, for a smaller stuff. And these phases, once again, SD can easily like a, almost like a blend into the DD phase, but I will, I will always like, usually when I see a CD phase, that's a phase when, when, uh, I'm hoping the owner doesn't change things much,

Nick: right?

Nick: So, okay. So If we add in the week or so to get to know you phase the contracts the deposit request the schematic design The construction documents is scanning site visit. So we're probably what a couple months in at this point. Yes. Okay Um, and have we engaged our engineering team yet?

Nino: Oh, yeah The engineering thing is being engaged hopefully from the early beginning as we said during even during the walkthrough You So they know what, what they can actually, what are, what is the infrastructure of the building and why are we trying to do it?

Paul: Especially if it's

Nino: existing. Exactly. So we'll like to have them earlier on.

Nick: So we get, we eventually though, we're going to have to have a final set on the, on the architectural side, life safety plan, et cetera. And we're going to be like, okay guys, this is the final layout. This is what this is. Here's the spec sheet for our equipment.

Nick: Exactly. Um, and So what do you think? We're going to add a couple more weeks for that final wrap up with our engineers.

Nino: So, so engineers are already in DD phase and they're already like fully engaged into the project and the CD phase, I prefer that we actually work simultaneously. Sometimes I see, which is, I usually don't advise doing that, like doing architectural first and then bringing engineers later because you're always going to carve the room for electrical panel, carve the room for extra HVAC requirements.

Nino: We're losing that first original design. So, So earlier the better, so team work simultaneously.

Paul: I mean, we might put something somewhere where it's like the plumbing guys are like, we can't make the slope work for the pipe. Exactly. We can't, we just can't do it.

Nino: Or it's too many bands, you know, and it's like, it's, so it's good to have them all.

Nino: And when CD is submitted, the CD should have all discipline involved into these drawings. And then it's going to go straight to the CD for a permit. And also is going to go to the, for a bidding for a contractor. Now, one things that they will like to mention is, which I see the trends is design build process.

Nino: That process, uh, it's preferred by many because contractor is also early involved, uh, in, in a design from the CD. The reason they have them. Is because more accurate pricing.

Nick: You're also going to see this on larger projects cause it's pricing is that much more important.

Nino: Exactly.

Nick: Um, but okay. So I'm just kind of stitching together this timeline to set some expectations.

Paul: On average, I'm thinking of a number between one to two months on average. So like a month and a half to where we submit, everything's pretty much done buttoned up. We've gone through the SD, the DD, the CD phases. We're now submitting. And then once we get there, that's kind of out of our control. So I'm thinking that's an average

Nick: plus minus, you know, sure.

Nick: So a couple of months. Now, on the commercial side, we submit all the permits on behalf of our client, because we can do that digitally at pretty much everywhere now. Residential is coming, not quite there yet. They still want their physical copies. Um, but we're now, and we still offer that service, but it's an add on rather than an included for the commercial side.

Nick: So we're submitting for permit approval. Now that the city has it in there, In their, uh, possession. What does that timeline look like? What's the expectation? No,

Nino: probably if you call them on a phone, they're going to tell you 30 days. That's what they have. Okay. And that's usually when you can expect, um, because once again, they're understaffed.

Nino: We're talking about Columbus area only specifically. I don't know how is other jurisdictions. Oh,

Paul: other jurisdictions can be eight weeks to 12 weeks.

Nino: Exactly. Can be even worse. Can be even worse. Yeah. New York City.

Paul: 12 weeks. Yeah. New York City. Yeah. Comments back.

Nino: That's, that's how, how they're really under stuff and, uh, and there is a lot of construction going on, which is good.

Nino: Uh, but

Nick: sometimes we're not always waiting 30 days, they get back faster. Some,

Nino: it's also, that's one of the one things that they keep mentioning why building that relationship with the city official is a key. So you can always introduce the, it's going to be even easier for them to understand the project if you engage them earlier on.

Nino: Then you see, this is the project. I'm, I'm currently working on a project, which is 600 million project. So we actually have bi weekly meeting with the city. Officials about this project and they already know and we already like they already know the schedule They understand what step we understand what steps we have to go through to satisfy the requirements So earlier engagement also with them He can, he can actually speed up the process a little

Paul: bit.

Paul: Also huge benefit to have someone that's local because obviously your firm is local and this is where the project is being built. You're working with the local officials and everybody's on the same page so that things can move forward, you know, step after step without having to jump over any hurdles.

Nick: Not only are they local, but are they doing projects of your nature? Because You know, if, if, if we're doing a restaurant project that's similar to a restaurant project we did three months ago, the city's also going to recognize, you know, the art fluence name or, you know, X firm, these

Nino: guys are good. He's going to go much smoother for us to review it.

Nino: So yeah, no, definitely. I mean, reputation is, is a key to, that's how you build a relationship by reputation. I mean, nobody wants to hang out with the fellows who are not responsible and good stuff.

Nick: And that reputation extends to the art. Our strategic partners, the surveyor, the MEP engineers, the structural engineer, the civil engineer, like that entire team, you know, the better they, and technically it does fall to us for that coordination and communication.

Nick: So we take a lot of that on our shoulders. Yeah.

Nino: Because, uh, in majority of cases, The, we as an architect, we, all these, uh, MEP consultants are actually under our contract. So there is a possibility for a owner to do like, uh, um, separate primes to actually to hire all these entity design entities separately.

Nino: But that can slow down a project. It definitely can slow down the project. I usually recommend for an architect to bring his team. The only things that will be the responsibility of the client will be like a site survey, geotechnical reports. And even then we can,

Nick: we have

Nino: contacts. We have a contact that can actually help them, like a special, special inspection that's going to be usually on the client side.

Nino: Uh, so yeah, I will say. Usually like a existing, like a site survey, geotechnical report, special inspection that should be on, on a client side, but everything else should be on a design team side.

Nick: And I I'll, I'll say this is something I've noticed over the last couple of years. A lot of firms now to kind of streamline their, their businesses are creating their own avatars, right?

Nick: And a lot of these engineering firms that are partnering with architecture firms, they're, they're sometimes refusing to work with the end client because it's a lot more handholding and it's either they charge more and then it's just not worth the headache.

Nino: To respect to, to, to our consultants, we, we, we just cannot put buildings together without them.

Nino: Usually, uh, they don't like that because they don't feel comfortable in it. They don't do that in regular basis. Usually it's the architect one, tidying everything. Consultants likes to concentrate about their stuff, their stuff only.

Paul: Plus, plus as the architect, we have some understanding what's needed, what's going into a project and what's coming from their side, if they're having a conversation with a client.

Paul: A client might be like, well, why I'm just going from office to, to a restaurant. Why can't I just keep everything the same for my mechanical system? Like I should be able to do that. And then, you know, they make a big stink about it. Where it's like, we immediately understand there's different requirements and yes, there's going to be impact and yes, it's going to be, you know, something that has to be done, you know, we understand why and some of the science behind it and what's going into it where the client might not necessarily.

Paul: So again, like Nino said, it's like. You know, it just becomes a headache for them.

Nino: And, and if you have anyone that you know, they going currently or was going through the school of architecture, he will tells you that he's very divided, diverse program where we actually not only, uh, being taught how to put like a nice looking buildings, but also we have to basic understanding of mechanical, electrical, structural system, technology system, so we can actually help and navigate connecting all these dots together.

Paul: Yeah, I love the other side of it because now I'm just like, great, let's hire the engineer because going through school, I think for me, the worst thing was concrete design and calculating the reinforcement for the concrete. We actually had to go through and calculate everything out in

Nino: iterations. So you never, you're never going to get to the number.

Nino: You always have to get to the closer possible number when calculating

Nick: concrete, those are the days I sat really close to you guys.

Paul: Yeah. And my friend, Mike, he's a structural engineer. Like when he first started, they actually made him calculate everything by hand, but now that he's gotten far enough along, and again, it's.

Paul: It's a level of understanding. Yes. So his level of understanding now is to the point where his firm is now like, great, you can use the software to help you, you know, with your work basically. Yeah. But when he first started out, he had to do everything by hand. Gotta go through your hands, man. Yeah. Get to go through your hands.

Nick: All right. I'm going to put my investor hat back on. Go ahead. What are, so I've, I've picked, I picked art fluence. I picked the architecture firm I want to work with, and I'm super pumped about my project. Now, what are some things that I can do as the, as the investor to help streamline the, like help the timeline, help my budget?

Nick: What are some questions I should be asking you, the architects, to help us kind of like, how can we make this happen? How can we reduce costs?

Nino: Uh, first, like many of our clients, they don't have even basic understanding of the construction. So some of them do, you know, and that's, that's probably going to be even easier.

Nino: But, uh, I think that, uh, communication has to be very relaxed. Uh, the most important thing that, uh, you have to explain your architect, where are your end goals are, what are you trying to achieve it as building, uh, so, so end goals, uh, is the one that you as an owner has to have clearly defined. In order to help architect adjust his design process, his design and communication with all consultants in order to get you to that end goal.

Paul: If we're working with existing conditions, I mean, it turns into a problem solving exercise. And so if we have that end goal in mind so that we know the destination, then we can help navigate how to get there, work through whatever exceptions we have to work through and hopefully get something that's very close to what they desire.

Paul: And

Nino: it's not strange.

Paul: Knowing it up front is, is what is highly beneficial.

Nino: And you know, we, as a designer, we, we don't really like the changes, especially in the game, but that is. It's up to be expected. Sure. So especially more experienced than we are as an, as an ARC Fluence, we're quite experienced fellows.

Nino: So we always can pull out some, some like a recommended changes that can adjust the requirements and still stay within the budget. Well said.

Paul: I'm going to be a little more specific, but I will say for me, my number one thing is just patience, right? Yeah, like I get it. There's money involved. There's a timeline involved.

Nick: I'm an investor. I don't have patience I want to get this thing going. I want to produce You

Paul: asked me like what's the thing that I'll help move things along if you have patience It'll help everybody in the process. So don't read. So don't email

Nick: the city late one night when, after I had a couple of drinks,

Paul: especially when it gets to the city part, because all of that is out of our control.

Paul: We cannot make them do something on a timeline just for our project, especially if it's a small scale project. The one guy in Upper Arlington is like, we have all these other projects that are X square feet and blah, blah, blah. And I'm doing this thing, you know, whatever. Again, this was a single family home.

Paul: It was a commercial project. But he's just like, I don't have time for this. Right? And people were pushing him to get things done immediately. And he's just like, you know what? I'm done. And threw his hands up. So yeah. Patience is critical. If you want things to go smoothly, you just have to be patient and trust that you'll get there quicker.

Paul: By having that patient and that's a

Nino: realistic that's a realistic goal that you have to have in mind I mean if he tells you in advance like he's gonna take city Minimum 30 days to review your project

Nick: and if it's faster, then everyone's happy. That's yeah

Paul: You need to be patient,

Nick: okay, let me go A little bit more specific on how we can potentially cut costs on a project.

Nick: So I, I was kind of leaning towards the whole civil engineering piece, which it can be very expensive in commercial projects if we're dealing with stormwater management, um, and, and I know there's some specific Site

Nino: specific, site specific requirements. Yes.

Paul: Well this, this works in the benefit if it's a smaller scale project.

Paul: Because if you keep your Area of disturbance under certain square footage, I think it's 10, 000 square feet and, and impervious area. So those two things together, 2000 square feet. So if you're doing something with parking and you're doing an addition onto a smaller scale, you know, commercial space, as long as your square footages are under those requirements, then you're not going to be triggered into the stormwater and all this kind of stuff.

Paul: So again, if you're right on that verge, that would be something that I would advise the investor. Why not scale back a hundred square feet, two hundred square feet, get you under that threshold. Otherwise you're going to be looking at a civil engineer and you're going to pay them another ten, twenty, thirty thousand dollars.

Paul: Forty thousand dollars. Yes, to do all this additional work.

Nick: And you're going to cut down on the actual construction of it too. So you're saving on all fronts. I think that's a really

Nino: good example, especially if debt is being attacked earlier on. So that's, that's what you need. Good design professionals who knows all this.

Nick: And that's the conversation that I want. We would try to have with our clients, right? What, what do you really, really need? And could you get by with a couple hundred square foot less so we don't trigger all these additional changes?

Nino: One of the, when I say end goals, one of them is. When you want to open the project, when you want to open the project, I mean, when, when project is going to go live, good luck with that, yes, yesterday, not tomorrow, yesterday.

Nino: Then how much money do you have and what is your budget? Like these are two most important thing, time, budget that you have in your mind. Do you have preferred contractor? That you have previously good experience with, you know, we can help you that too. Like a, we, we can, we work with the contractors where we have really good experience.

Nino: We work with some that maybe not that great either, so we can advise you on that. So it was like a very nice, and we can help you also define a goal. You always going to have something in your mind or how much square footage I want. I want to return in my investment critic quickly. I want to, you know what I'm saying?

Nino: So all of these clients have different end goals, but. But clearly stating the end goal, it's going to help your design team to funnel his design decision timeline, schedule everything to, or just to make you, you know what, maybe you have to adjust your end goal a little bit.

Paul: Yeah. And obviously if the contractor is involved at certain stages, we can have conversations with him on how to reduce costs.

Paul: So if cost is a major concern. And that's what you're worried about. Which usually is. Then like Nino said earlier, if there's like some equipment that you have to invest money into because you're switching from the, you know, office space to the rest, uh, restaurant space and there's some equipment or some other electrical things that you have to upgrade and you have to spend money there.

Paul: Fine. Then we're going to have to take money from the material side and put in some materials that cost less. And the contractor will help with that. We have a general idea, but

Nino: he's, I

Paul: mean, like someone like that, he, she, whoever that's doing the work, they're in it daily checking, you know, prices of material prices of labor.

Paul: So they're going to have a finger on the pulse to know exactly how to get things done and for the budget that you're shooting for,

Nick: and we also offer services to be part of that. Um, process while construction is going on, too. So some, some of our clients, I would say probably most of our clients, we engage them just for CDs, construction documents and permit approval.

Nick: Um, but there are also some projects that we stay involved with, you know, obviously, if something comes up, we're available. That's, that's

Nino: the next phase. Uh, that we called, uh, construction administration, CA, CA phase. So that's pretty much when, uh, we can sign the contract with the owner to have, uh, periodically to visit the site, to inspect the quality of the work being.

Nino: So our goal. As an architect, not to tell contractor how to build stuff, that's means and methods. We are, means and

Nick: methods, means and methods are the responsibility of the contractor.

Nino: Exactly. So our goal is just to make sure that what is actually being installed, built, executed matches with construction document.

Nino: So that's, that's the goal of the architect. Sometimes if the site is not secure, he has to give it attention so that the buildings to the supervisor site supervisor, if there are some unsafe conditions, that's the only things that we as, and also what we also can doing, we actually can review the submittals.

Nino: Specific for the projects. If there are any RFIs and construction always brings the RFIs. If there's

Paul: clarity that's needed on something, I mean, we noted in our drawings that immediately you need to reach out back to the architectural team for clarification. So,

Nick: and, and that's. Going back to RFIs, so anything that is involved with the contractor, the client, any additional information that we need to provide or provide clarity on, that would be something that's additional and after the fact.

Nick: That's usually after permit approval.

Nino: Exactly, that is after. RFIs can even come during the bidding, depending on the size of the project, which we call the bidding RFIs. But majority RFIs are actually coming in the construction. When they come there and discover something that we just couldn't see it.

Nino: Because we don't have x ray visions. So in that case

Paul: Yeah, they might remove a ceiling and then all of a sudden, Oh, these walls don't go all the way up, right? Well, okay, that's a problem. They submit that request for information and then we go from there. And when we go to the site Unforeseen conditions.

Paul: Yeah,

Nino: and when we do the site visit And, uh, we actually going to assemble the report site and then in that report is going to be one copy is going to be sent digitally is going to send to the contractor. The second is going to be sent to the owner. So the owner has better understanding what's going on on the site.

Nino: Some owners. Go in direction to not have an architect in the, during the CEA, but majority of it will still like to have designed resides during the construction.

Nick: Yeah, I would say on, on the smaller commercial projects, it's probably less necessary and we, we, we take them more on the challenge you on that though.

Nick: Oh, I know. I would say it's more necessary.

Paul: Because you might have a contractor

Nino: who

Paul: only does residential work. And all of a sudden he's like, you know what, I'm going to try to do some commercial work. It's a small scale commercial project. Why not? It's great.

Nick: Well, Paul's referencing something that just happened with us, but I'm going to

Paul: challenge you on that point that, Oh, maybe you don't need it.

Paul: I think you actually, it's better to have it is better to have it because then it's less likely you're going to create hurdles that you have to then navigate, right? So again, you talk about advice to make the project go smoother. I would say have your design team, your architect, your design professional involved in the construction administration process.

Paul: And

Nino: many designers like to be involved in CEHAs only because, only because they would like to see the execution of the contract document to the end.

Paul: Yeah.

Nino: And I

Paul: think it's easy to think that because it's a smaller project. I probably don't need them and I'll save some money, but at the end of the day, it's worth the little bit of extra, a couple thousand extra to have them

Nick: on board.

Nick: And that's my point. And that's why I said it. Cause as an investor, I'm always. Putting myself in the investor's shoes and what they're thinking and what their goals are. Because, you know, as you guys have just, you've designed your entire life as architects on big projects and you have your lane, right?

Nick: And you've stayed in that where I'm trying, I kind of see, like, I see both sides really. And now I'm just like, Ooh, it's, it's tough to make both parties happy sometimes. And sometimes there's a compromise there. You have to

Paul: understand that your design professional should be your subject matter expert. And he's the one who's going to know, they're the ones that are going to know everything that is required to get your project done and to get the goal that you want at the end of the day, man.

Nino: And that's another thing that you have to like, uh, play with it is, uh, if I may be involved in my, uh, contractors earlier on during even design phase, probably your, uh, Your, uh, CA time designer is going to be less because they're more into in tune into it, uh, from the early on and the standard topic and, and all the challenges.

Nino: But when you actually hired the, like a contractor later on, and especially as Paul mentioned, if someone who was doing, uh, uh, he doesn't have that big experience and or reputation that is required, then you will, you will probably save yourself in the longterm. A lot of money by just hiring architect to do the CA work.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Especially if your project gets delayed and you're borrowing

Paul: hard money. Money and time and time is obviously as an investor, you know, you could have holding costs and other things. Not only that, just lost loss of income.

Nino: We're not talking manufacturer product. We talking about construction and always something's goes out.

Nino: So it's always unforeseen conditions,

Paul: especially with existing buildings. Oh, yes. Yeah. That's just why in general. The fees are actually a little bit higher for an existing building. And for somebody to go in and do a renovation on the construction side, on the design, rather than a

Nick: new

Paul: build, rather than a piece of dirt where everything is, is new and you build everything from scratch.

Paul: Right. There's certain conditions that you still have to work around,

Nino: especially if something be added later on is not part of the original construction. I'll be surprised if you don't even have foundations under these walls.

Paul: So we, we had that on. You know, a couple episodes ago and again, what was the one thing he said?

Paul: The thing that he noticed trend wise with projects that have problems, any project he goes into that had an addition done at some point in time, right? So it's like, especially if you have an existing building where you had it, it was this originally, they did some addition. Now we're doing something else and we're coming in at this point.

Paul: You know, again, a lot of unforeseen issues and things that were just done, whatever, back then.

Nick: Sure, on older buildings, sometimes the original structure was done better than the addition that was done later. Because the addition

Nino: may be done by the owner by itself, you know what I'm saying? And he may not be the developer executed, so

Nick: I think that's a really good foundation for small commercial projects.

Nick: Obviously, I want to dive into some larger projects on another episode that we're currently bidding on, which is super exciting.

Paul: Well, we can talk about some of our past work too. I mean, you know, I worked 10 years in Chicago working on high rises. Sure. So yeah. And he knows right in the middle of all these hospital developments right now.

Paul: He's working on a 600 million project right now. So it is. And that's a whole nother conversation. Like you said,

Nick: that's a whole nother podcast, folks. Yes, it is. All right. With that said, we're going to wrap this thing up. Um, thanks for joining us and we will see you in two weeks.

Paul: This has been the Arcfluence Podast.

Paul: As always, you can get more information and additional content on arcfluence. com. Please subscribe on the platform of your choice and leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you.