Episode Six: Working Smarter with 3D Scanning
In this episode of the Arcfluence podcast, hosts Nick, Paul, and Nino explore the transformative impact of 3D scanning technology in architecture. They discuss the shift from traditional manual measurement to advanced digital methods that enhance accuracy and efficiency, highlighting practical experiences with the Leica BLK 360 scanner and the broader implications for the industry.
Nick: Welcome to the Arcfluence podcast, where we chat about how design impacts the way we live, work, and invest. I'm Nick Karakaian, your host. I'm here with my co hosts, Paul Fatkins and Nino Samardzic. Welcome guys to episode six. Paul, today we're talking about a topic you're very excited about.
Paul: It's my favorite topic of all time.
Paul: Yes! Why don't you tell us a little about it? Basically how to work smarter, right? Not harder. Yeah. Essentially, if you think about scanning, that's basically what we're trying to do, right? We're trying to get rid of the human factor of it, where we have error and, not representation of what the space is.
Paul: And basically get rid of all that and just work in a more efficient way.
Nick: Okay, so let's take a step back. What exactly does a scanning do in architecture? And what does it do for us?
Paul: There's two ways to think about it, right? Scanning is also called like reality capture and it's called reality capture because it's basically a digital twin that you're making, right?
Paul: So everything around you as we sit here in this space. Would be captured by the scanner. Not only the, distances between walls, the distance between the floor and the ceiling, but like even all the furniture and equipment that's in the room, literally everything, windows, shades.
Nick: Which is why we step out of the way when the scanner is working.
Paul: Ideally , yeah. Cause it's line of sight, but essentially it's capturing the reality around you, and then you'd get all of that and you plug it into your computer.
Nick: Let's go back to. Before we actually had a scanner and what the process was for taking measurements at a property.
Nick: The whole goal of this is to get an idea of what the space is so that we can then transcribe it onto AutoCAD or Revit to make our 3d model. And produce a set of construction documents.
Paul: This is definitely the funner part of the story. Because the scanning stuff, it's exciting, but at the same time, it's like, You just, you go do your thing, you plug it into your computer, off you go, right?
Paul: When you go out to the site and you have to sketch it, first of all, it takes two of us. Yeah. At least. But it's like I remember in the early days, you had a notebook, right?
Nick: Yes. Yes, I had, I would have to sketch out if, let's just say we have a house and I would take a notebook. I would sketch out the space of the, of what we're working in.
Nick: And then, Paul would have the one end of the tape measured, I'd have the other end. I'd call out the, or he'd call out what it was. I'd write it down. I'd write the wall on the thing or vice versa. I forget it really depended on each project and our mood that day. But we'd go around to every single wall and we'd like, how much coffee we had that day, correct.
Nick: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So and we'd get it down to what? Quarter inch, eighth of an inch.
Nino: At least we should be quarter inch in architecture. Yeah.
Nick: Every time we'd get our measurements and we'd spend hours on a site. I'd go home and then I'd sit down with my sketchbook I'd get a glass of wine and I'd get into cad and I'm, and then I'd draw a room and the room corners don't connect.
Paul: Or this is the best part. You would take a picture on your cell phone, and this is like what? Five generations ago of cell phones here. So you take a picture and you text it to like me or Nino. Okay. Here's my sketch and here's the measurements. Yeah.
Nino: Hey Nick, by the way, did you actually double check the thickness of walls?
Paul: Hey, is there a window over here? It looks like in the picture there's a window, but in your sketch here. Yeah, I don't see any window. Yeah, I guess I'll go back tomorrow.
Nick: He forgot about that wine part. And that's another thing. We would take pictures of spaces, but we wouldn't necessarily have video.
Nick: Yeah. So yeah. And we'd have all these inconsistencies and I'd have to go back to the property. It was a, it was just so much more time, so much more energy and less accuracy.
Nick: Less accuracy. That's most important thing. Yeah. So then we get a laser.
Paul: Yeah. I think, probably, I don't know, the fifth iteration.
Paul: of you sending like the picture with the text phone. I just, I'm throwing my hands up at that point, and it was just like, come on, like we can do better than this. So I think at that point I started to research, what are ways that we can, and I think at one point I even had a an adapter for the iPad.
Paul: I think if I remember right
Nick: Matterport was the first Matterport
Paul: Then I started, going down that trail as well. So yeah, Matterport, it was like a more broadly used reality capture tool, but it was more like real estate people because it was based on photos and infrared light. So I was researching and doing different stuff because that was what about...
Paul: eight or nine years ago, 10 years ago.
Nino: Wasn't some kind of issue with the scaling in the metaphor or something? Scaling,
Paul: yeah, was an issue. The accuracy level was an issue. If you go outside, like the earlier generation and there's bright daylight, it wouldn't capture things.
Nick: It's an infrared scanner as opposed to a laser scanner. Yeah. So that's a big difference.
Paul: Yeah, like the sun would mess with it, like the brightness and the ultraviolet rays, and it would just jack it up, basically.
Nick: If I recall correctly, it hasn't been a while, but we've had to Are the distance between each scanning point was a lot shorter, so we'd have many more scans.
Paul: Or again, like with that Matterport and the older, technology.
Paul: If you went outside with it, it would just fail. Not like you couldn't even move in an inch. Yeah, it just wouldn't work, great. So we did a lot of guessing back then.
Nino: Relying on pictures, I will say in your notes.
Paul: Yeah. And the notes. Yeah. But yeah, it's, so that started us down that path. And so it's it's not like we just went out and said, Oh, we're just going to buy a scanner.
Paul: I think we got to the point where the sketching we realized had issues and we wanted to resolve those issues. And so we started to research and methodically go through what about this? What about that? I think even at one point the iPhone system had the LIDAR scanner on it. Yes. And didn't you put that on
Nick: the iPad?
Paul: Yeah, and so like I was trying to use an app.
Nick: Oh, I remember that, yeah. But it wasn't as accurate as we needed it to be. No, not at all. And at the end of the day, it still wasn't saving us a whole lot of time. Which is,
Paul: no. That's what...
Nino: ....you need, professional equipment.
Paul: Yeah. So at the end of the day After all the playing around and all the research to what Nino said you just need if you want the results You need to pony up and pay for it You know, you need that professional level of equipment
Nick: Paul calls me and he's we need to buy a 20, 000 scanner Yeah, I can't remember
Paul: what you said after that
Paul: So 20, you say 20, 000
Nick: and then I quickly did some research and we ended up financing it because we didn't have 20, 000 at the time.
Nino: Yeah. That's what you have financing.
Nick: Yep. So we ended up paying 26, 000,
Nick: but let's talk about that. How long have we been using Paul? Tell us about the Leica.
Paul: I think at this point we've had it now for what, two, three years, right? I think a little over three years now. Yeah. Essentially
Nick: it's game changer. So what's the model number?
Nick: Walk us through what that looks like. Cause what are some of the specs? What are some of the advantages?
Paul: Yeah. So it's a Leica BLK 360. Leica is a company that is in the industry architecture, construction industry. They have a ton of like survey equipment, even just like your handheld laser measurers and, I think also does like lens manufacturing and, basically they're Like top notch, top quality, top of the game.
Paul: Yeah, the scanner that we have it can see all around you 360 degrees. The only, and it can see above and below, it just can't see directly below you. So it's not 360, 360, it's 360, 300 degrees of vision. And then as far as the range, you can go up to 60 meters and retain your accuracy.
Paul: And you can also take photos and other, and the accuracy, they, it's all metric for, for whatever reason, they decided to put all their measurements in metric. But accuracy is up to six, six millimeters at a 10 meter distance. And so in general, the ranging accuracy is like four millimeters to seven millimeters.
Paul: But basically it's around an eighth of an inch is what you can think of it for the accuracy. So it's a little bit better than like an industry standard, which is
Nino: quarter.
Paul: Yeah.
Nick: There's several advantages with this technology. Obviously it doesn't require two people anymore. You can actually go and scan jobs by yourself.
Nick: I can go scan jobs by myself, although it doesn't always work out exactly the way I planned. Paul, you do a lot more scanning than I do, but
Paul: to be fair. So again, compare the first going out and sketching, and then we get into the Matterport, like what was the comparison there? 10 times easier.
Paul: Oh
Nick: yeah. Yeah. I would say the Matterport was a little bit more difficult to use because the connection between each point never was always troublesome. And then we had to do so many more scans. We're doing a lot less scans now. The connection is a lot better. I think the technology is better. It's faster.
Nick: It's a faster scan.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then like you said, like you're going point to point because obviously you can't just jump from one side of the building to the other. It has to know what it's connecting to as you're going and stitching all of these things together. But like again, ease of use, right?
Paul: 10 times easier.
Nick: How about on the drawing side, you've had point data, point data from both machines. Do you, did you notice a difference, obviously? Oh, yeah. There's more data points with the, like a, yeah,
Nino: The scanner is more precise. You can even see like some deformation in construction.
Nino: It can tells you that maybe there is some issues with the structural components of the building. You see some sagging and stuff like that. It's very accurate.
Nick: So when the client says, why is my wall crooked? On the construction documents, it's because. The wall's crooked.
Nino: Both are crooked. And one thing I would like to mention, and architecture, and for many people that maybe don't know that, it's not just nice, new buildings. Majority, I will say 80 percent of the real architecture is renovations and additions. So capturing the existing condition of the space is crucial.
Nino: Very important and having accurate data that are captured precisely and fast and effectively is very important because I'm working in a company that is still relying on the people to make the measurements, which is so prone to multiple mistakes. Sure. A
Nick: lot of big firms, they send their interns out, to cut costs because it's such a time consuming event.
Paul: And, again, talking back to the beginning, right? Measuring by hand, you go out, you go into a room, maybe you take a measurement across. So that's one data point. You take another measurement across. That's another data point, right? That wall could be crooked. If you take a measurement on one side of the wall, it could be a couple inch difference compared to the other end of the wall, especially if it's a long 150 foot wall.
Paul: So if you're taking one data point. And you're just measuring across, okay, that's my measurement. I'm just gonna, you just draw everything like you'll mirror it to save time and it's not always correct. You just make assumptions basically. And you only have a couple of data points.
Paul: What is
Nino: most importantly, I'm sorry I'm cutting you off, it's actually recapturing 3D space because when humans go, and especially young interns that thinks nothing about how they can about five o'clock when they're going to go home When they capturing the space, and I noticed that when I'm actually measuring the space like a manually, you mostly concentrate on a floor plan on a floor plate, which is two dimensional things.
Nino: And God knows how many times returned back to office. And I was like, I did everyone put information where the windowsill is. Yeah, everybody look at me like a pale. It was like a no Can we look at the pictures and try to estimate it? Yeah, you're counting No, you have to go back. You have to go back and drives client not like especially if you have Like I'm working lots of in healthcare and we actually measure one of these operational and rooms Which are actually brings a lot of money to the client So in order to schedule the measuring of that space, You have to block it off.
Nino: You have to block it off. Which cost the money. It cost the money, cost the time, cost the organizational. You have to have people to escort you there. You have to dress up in a bunny suits and all this fun stuff. So if you miss like information, the client is going to look at you pale. It was like a Are you supposed to doing your job?
Nino: So that's what I'm like, what I like about these scanners and I highly recommend. Yeah.
Paul: But again, like for me, it's like data points, right? So if you go out there by hand, you can only capture so much, like even if you measure again, talking about a wall. You go on one end of the wall to the other side, you go in the middle of the wall to the other side, you go on the opposite end to the other side, right?
Paul: It's still only three points of data, three measurements across. So then it's like a little more helpful. But again, if you have some intern out there that's just doing things quickly and trying to get through all these different spaces, they're probably taking one measurement and that's it, right? When we got to the Matterport, there is maybe like 100, 000, 50, 000 points of measurement when it did like a 3D scan of the space.
Nick: But now there's millions.
Paul: It's like billions.
Nick: Billions!
Paul: In total. But it's the scanner we have, the reason why it costs 26, 000 is because every second it captures 360, 000 data point measurements. That is insane. 360, 000 a second. Now, it's able to literally capture the reality.
Nick: To be fair, you still have to know what you're doing because you have to be connected.
Nick: You have to draw the model and connect to the right points, to make sure your drawings are accurate. There's
Paul: post processing too, right? So it's obviously we have a tool to scan. Once that's done, we're taking it into another software to basically Like homo homogenize it, whatever. Yeah.
Paul: Combine it into a unified, tied up everything. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a unified model where it's like everything's connected properly and then that gets exported and put into our final software, which is where we actually use it as an overlay underlay, and can draw and reference and go into all different views.
Paul: Cut. Yeah. Cut. And, yeah.
Nick: So the rea, the reality is. We may cut our site visits down for measurements for scanning maybe down to an hour a couple hours however There's still a lot of work on the back end and I guess it depends on the scope of the project for our larger commercial Projects in size. We're there for a couple days which is a service that our influence offers we can travel anywhere in the United States But we use it for everything like our houses because when we process a house We're then able to export it and send it to our team and they, whether they work remotely or not so we can do our work anywhere.
Paul: Yeah. Again, just Nino's point that he was bringing up the value of it, right? It's really hard to measure it because what you get out of it is just, it's incredible in terms of value. There's no guesswork, there's no assumptions and everything is exactly as it is when the scanner sees it and measures it.
Nick: And also we just, we get inquiries where they have gone out and measured it by hand and there's inconsistencies after they've started the project. So they'll call us in, we'll go in and scan to verify everything and then we can do an, they can do an overlay with the scan data onto the existing model that they created and find out what exactly is going on.
Nino: And good thing is actually can be used by like a multiple team members. It cannot be only architecture can be used by structural, as I already mentioned, MEPs, because you also can capture the, all these existing ducts. If they were like exposed, just keep in mind, the scanners cannot see through the walls.
Nino: But stuff like that can be easily shared with the multiple team members across the board, which is good thing.
Paul: Yeah. And I'm glad you actually brought that up. So yeah, it's not an x ray machine, right? Yeah, just so
Nino: people let you know that
Paul: Yeah, so if you have a ton of crap in an old house that, some hoarder was living there, basically, you'd have to go in and have it somewhat cleaned out.
Paul: So that the scanner can see everything that it needs to
Nino: see. Can you more talk about preparation for work? How are you actually mapping out the tour that you're going to go to the building?
Paul: Sometimes, but not, it's difficult. Sometimes you show up, you don't really have anything pre existing, right?
Paul: If it's a commercial project, you might actually have a pre existing drawing and then where you need to like do Some scanning work and you have something where it's like an existing space and you have something to start with right now. Obviously, if someone gives me a plan. It's I don't just assume it's accurate.
Paul: That's why we go to scan. Exactly. We go to scan to verify that whatever we're given as a base drawing is accurate and we can go off to the race with the design work, right? And know that all of our measurements are correct. But if it's a house, you get there and you just assess on site, right?
Paul: But it definitely should be, It's cleaned out as much as possible like even for me, even if there's like shades and drapes in front of the window a lot of times we'll just do an interior renovation, but I'll say to Nick I'm going to scan the entire outside. Yes. And at first he was like, okay, why are we doing all this
Nick: extra work?
Nick: Paul?
Paul: Yeah. he's we're just doing some work on the inside. He's we're not touching anything on the outside. We don't
Nino: see where our windows are. And I'm
Paul: like, Nick, I'm like, have you gone in the house? There's a ton of crap everywhere. There's stuff blocking the windows. Now we have the proper window openings, dimensions, so we can do a window and door schedule. So the scanner would see the blinds, or see the drapes, and it's gonna Literally scan that and it doesn't see what's behind the blinds or the drapes, right? And it's
Nino: not bothered by light you mentioning Yeah, so it can be can you can actually scheme this scanning like a direct a dark space Yes,
Paul: it could be completely pitch black And it would be able to see some properties.
Paul: They don't
Nino: even, they don't have having power because they just being abounded. And sometimes that's
Paul: the case. Yeah, the biggest issue. So it's not light. It doesn't need to be like lit up properly. Biggest issue is more just like the line of sight and being able to see things. So like you said, it's not an x ray machine.
Paul: It can't see through something. So yeah, we would just do the interior space in the scope of work, but I would scan everything on the outside so that all the openings. Are basically hit and we can see all the openings for the windows And also when
Nino: you're scanning like a smaller spaces like a closets and stuff There is a way how you open the door how far you open the door so you can actually see it inside
Paul: So that's usually what nick does I say?
Paul: Hey nick run around open all the doors. I'm paul's helper
Nick: But we got to do some scans by yourself and you're able to do that by yourself. But a lot of times our clients are meeting us for design consultation. So I'll show up, we'll talk, I'll talk to the client, we'll go over their vision, I'll give some feedback, we'll come up with some type of collaboration, have a discussion about it.
Nick: I'll open all the doors for you. I'll also do 3d video.
Paul: Yeah. As long as you're not occupied, sometimes you and I will just go to the site and it's just you and me there, measuring stuff. Then yeah, Nick will kind of chip in and help because he doesn't have to sketch things anymore.
Paul: And I will say
Nino: 3D video is also helpful because it gets you to grasp the context of the project that you're working on. And plus Nick will while walking around with the camera, he will actually specify some items that he laid out with the clients, what they actually would like to do with that space in the future.
Nick: And that's also why we. So we have the ability to take photos through the scanner, but it does add time to each scan. And at least in residential stuff, I'll take our 3d video and I'll be able to talk through all of our designs, our, my conversations with the client, take note of the location of the electrical box, and certain elements that'll help bring everything together.
Nick: Yeah.
Paul: Yeah. And back to some of the prep work that you were talking about. So yeah, the doors are propped open. So that way again, it's if I go into a room and the door is already propped, right? I can go into the room and then go over to where the door is already propped and go into you know Even if it's at a 45 degree and then go into that closet or that laundry room or whatever along the other side of the door in the space there if it's closed then I'm coming in.
Paul: I'm doing scans And then after I do scans, I then have to go over, open the door, do another scan, and then go into that space. So it's like there's extra steps if we're not going around and prepping properly. Or if things are blocked, then obviously you're not getting the information. That's why again if things are, blocked on the inside, I'll go and scan the outside.
Paul: Because then at least there's not something annoying on the outside. I can still see it. I see that.
Nino: How are you actually scanning stairs, if they're especially long ones?
Paul: Same kind of process all line of
Nick: sight. 500 tripod is able to adjust onto the each step,
Paul: But I can't just go from it. Same thing on the outside, right?
Paul: I can't go. From the front to the back. Right? So if I have a really extended staircase, I can't go top to bottom Got it, so I have the range. Yeah, at least a scan in the middle. The range is not an issue It'll see up there. Right but Again to guarantee the level of accuracy that we kind of demand especially you should drop the middle point.
Paul: Absolutely Yeah, so that way we can basically guarantee that accuracy And stitch as we go up.
Nino: Or if stairs turn like 90 degrees and it's all enclosed in a wall, then you have to go I definitely, yeah, I
Paul: actually prefer the shorter stairs that like have the turns in it.
Paul: Cause then I can go landing to landing. Exactly. If it's a really long one, then it becomes cumbersome. Cause then I got to make these adjustments to the tripod and set up in the middle and then go to the top and readjust the tripod, so a little bit of a delicate process, but It's not that bad once you get on site and do it.
Paul: So what
Nino: I also saw the benefits like a huge benefits when you're actually scanning outside I will see like a fences and stuff and see the property lines Which is very helpful because many of these properties especially in residentials They don't have like surveys done and what is actually distance of the building to the
Paul: property and it'll see further It'll see
Nino: Like trees and
Paul: stuff.
Paul: Yeah. They don't see like over a hundred meters, like 300 feet away into the distance. It'll yeah. Trees. It, I mean everything. And it, it'll have the entire neighborhood. Yeah. Maybe we can post like a screen capture of one of the raw outputs of the neighbor. Quite
Nino: often. I will actually see to you guys talking to the client on a scan as well.
Nino: So it's so funny. Yeah.
Nick: Tonino to your point. Also, if you see a fence line. Without going to the auditor's site, you can assume that's the property line and that we know we're going to have a fire rated wall because we're less than fire rated. If you're too
Nino: close, exactly. And also you can actually tell where is the, when you're like the sidewalk curbs drops when the road starts.
Nino: Because many of these especially if you find this like a online Websites from the cities, they're not super accurate. There are still good tools, but they're not super accurate. Especially if you have really tight property. Every inch matters.
Paul: Yeah, and then again even if we're only doing interior renovation, going back to like prep and like what we think about when we're there on site So one of the things I'm thinking about too is like thickness of the wall even because I can't yeah I can't see from inside to outside So the only way to capture that thickness is to take a measurement that hits the outside surface Work my way inside and take a measurement Yeah, the inside surface and then that discrepancy is the thickness of the wall and BAM.
Paul: I got it
Nino: Because many of these buildings, especially old one, they'll evolve over time, they're being renovated and renovated, they have multiple layers of different stuff in these walls. So that is very crucial, very important to capture it. But one thing that I will mention it too, is that doesn't give the It still leaves the obligation for a contractor when he start demoing work, if he actually discovers something that was being assumed on a joints because we just simply cannot see through the walls.
Nino: He still have, is obligated to report any unusual inconsistencies to the designer.
Nick: We can always give a heads up though, if we notice like an unusually thick wall.
Nino: Yeah. Unusually thick wall or if they are just in one of the properties, if they decide to remove entire roof, that's completely different atmosphere now if you're extending the building or adding pitch roof to the roof that was previously flat.
Nino: So it can cause multiple complications that every contractor needs to report to the designer. Yeah. Many cases architect.
Paul: Yeah. And in a lot of times when I'm on site, like I'm trying to map through and think about all these different things. And then again, if it's a residential property, I'll show up and just map it out as I go.
Paul: If it's commercial property, I might have a plan where I could map out all the different areas that I need to capture. Another thing I mentioned for commercial spaces, you might have a drop ceiling that where you actually have to like. Pop some ceiling tiles. Yes, and if you have ceiling tiles, if it is not gypsum that you cannot Yeah, it is what it is.
Paul: If it's gypsum, it's just scanning the ceiling. We're not gonna do demo work out there But like I've actually had to get scissor lifts before for commercial property And go up pop ceiling tiles on the scissor lift and then put the scanner up inside of the ceiling to get all of the ceilings That's nice.
Paul: So
Nino: actually can capture all these ductwork Everything
Paul: the pipes. Yeah, so then I'm going in several locations all around with it's fun to drive the scissor lift you like Get the little joystick and yeah, and then you go it's scary when you go up though because it actually is Have you ever been on?
Paul: Oh, yeah. I was
Nino: actually on once. It's a yeah a Yeah, if you're out rocking
Nick: inside is much better than outside. If you're outside on a windy day, I was
Nino: actually outside. It was it was like a better today. It was cold and it was, yeah, it was windy.
Nick: Now we have the drone. So instead of going, getting access to a roof, if we need to like document some type of equipment, Now we just fly the drone up there. Yeah, I'll take a few photos. But if we
Paul: need to
Nick: scan, we still
Paul: have to go up there. Can
Nino: you say now more about, you mentioned God knows how many Points measures in a seconds or whatever.
Nino: So that's a lot of data. I'm guessing that's very big files. So how are you doing all this stitching together? How are you transporting these giant size files? How are you managing
Paul: with all this? So the scanner itself has an internal hard drive, right? And it could save a few hundred scans which usually for residential project, we can scan.
Paul: Anywhere from 30 up to 70 for a residential scan. So every once in a while, I do have to go in and purge out all the, cause every time you do a scan, it automatically saves it there. And then it also saves it on my iPad, which then I'll transfer later to like the computer.
Nick: We've had a, we've had some large residential projects and even commercial projects where there's a hundred plus scans easily.
Nick: And then you've had to delete. Past projects because we ran out of room.
Paul: So there's a management on the size of it as well. And then when you get it into the software, so it's all the raw data you're talking like one project could be 10 to 20, depends on the number of scans. Yeah. But it could be up to a couple hundred gigabytes of space.
Paul: Large amounts of debt. Cause again, like the amount of data that it's collecting is enormous. Then when you actually go to output it. You stitch it all together. You make this unified model and then you can basically say Okay, we're gonna stitch it together and if you have duplicate points, clean that up Essentially and make a little bit smaller file.
Paul: So then your final output might only be several gigabytes It the software does it our software? Yeah So if again because to connect it you need overlap, so you're going point to point You And it can see where it was before to where it is now, and it can make the connection and basically align everything to give you the entire building, all the interior spaces, doors, everything right?
Paul: But again, that overlap, it's duplicated data, right? So the software knows that it's duplicated data. It's used primarily to make the connection. Once everything is connected and you go to actually output the final thing, then it gives you a clean, unified. Point cloud. So then you might have 50 to 100 gigabytes going in of raw stuff.
Paul: You might have 10 percent of that coming out as like your final model that you dump into Revit. So you're still gonna have a several gigabyte large file that you have to dump in, and sometimes it can be tedious to work with. But, again, like You can section it down to like certain view or crop down and makes it a lot easier to work with.
Paul: So are
Nino: you, is it like a third party
Paul: software or that's a software? It's all through the company that makes the scanner. So it's like a scanner. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So it's like Cyclone is the platform, the software and Cyclone 360 and it's for the Leica BLK360. And yeah, it just dumps into their proprietary software.
Paul: It's a proprietary file that they have. That's good. So yeah, they kind of handcuff you to basically using their process and their system, all
Nick: scanners and companies do that. Yeah. Essentially
Nino: the same point. If something goes south, it's a one point of yep. Cost consumers, my apology.
Nino: The cool thing
Nick: about using the Leica scanner though, is we still, we keep and store the data. Yeah, ourselves. Oh, yeah, so it's not being stored on their drive. Yeah, you're not controlling the information. That's
Paul: good that's a point that you mention and I'm glad you mentioned that because back in the day when we did the Matterport I think another reason why we got away from because it's actually sitting on their cloud They yeah, they control everything and as soon as you stop paying them your monthly subscription, they say great.
Paul: It's gone. It's gone
Nick: So if a client says, Hey, I want to, if client comes back like six months or a year later, that never happens, it never happens at all. Never, ever happens projects take a week
Paul: and that's it. And then they're done happens
Nick: always, but we don't
Paul: have to worry about that anymore.
Paul: Thank goodness. Yeah. And here's the other. So like another great benefit, right? Yeah. Two years down the road, say something is needed, the client, for whatever reason, decides not to move forward at the time, then they finally move forward, then two years later, for some reason, something doesn't quite match up and they want to look at something, they come back to us, I can pull up the file on my computer two years later, look at what we scanned two years ago okay.
Paul: Yeah, your floor joist should be a two by eight here and a two by 10 here based on the difference between floor and ceiling, between the two spaces and, yeah. So what's your question? Let's talk through it. Yeah. We can have a thoughtful conversation
Nick: without even doing a site visit potentially.
Nick: Yeah, because we have all that data that's stored. Data captured. Yeah.
Nino: Now then you stitch everything together. In that software that is proprietary for the 3d scanner company. So how then you transfer the data to BIM software?
Paul: So Autodesk has, recap, which is basically their software that is for like point clouds and the format is an RCP file and that file type is basically like universal and all Autodesk products.
Paul: Got it. So Revit. Automatically recognizes that file and we can just plug it directly and link it directly. Even now I think so out of this, I think query twin motion, which is like a rendering software. Yeah. Even you can take a point cloud data, put it into twin motion, and then you can have someone do a walk through fly through.
Paul: Of like the existing space say you have a client that's even remote And okay. What'd you capture out there? I haven't even met the property. I'm just the investor I'm buying it and I hide the contractor hide you guys to do the drawings You can walk the space I can literally walk the space with them on my computer Yeah,
Nino: you have big clients that they're just like a purchase the property and they never been in it Yeah
Nick: we're licensed in hawaii.
Nick: So I am planning on getting a ticket asap So you're gonna be
Nino: exclusive one the scanner measure. Yes. I'm gonna be Just for Hawaii.
Paul: Just for Hawaii. Okay. Oh, Minnesota in January. Oh yeah. I'm busy. Paul. Yeah. I probably can do that. Paul is on his way. You got a winter hat, right?
Nick: And boots.
Nick: Yeah. Off you go. So let's talk about what's next. I know Paul has already, we haven't even finished paying off this scanner and Paul is already telling me about a new scanner. This list. That's 60, 000. 60, 000. Yeah roughly three times, three times the cost. Yeah. And I smiled at him.
Nick: Yeah. So walk me through that. Convince me, sell me on this.
Paul: I think we'll get there eventually too. It's just, so this is great, right? The new updated, whatever, better version of this does pretty much everything that this guy does, but on a higher spending this money on Paul, but at a higher rate and at a better level.
Paul: So like Again, like if you look at like the corner where two corners come together, right there, it might be a little Whatever fuzzy basically with the scanner that we have now I'm trying to think of a way to explain it so that you can understand like what I'm
Nick: being It's not accurate to an eighth of an inch.
Nick: It's accurate to like a 16th or a 32nd Oh, it's a high
Paul: accuracy. It's higher accuracy higher range. So I
Nick: cook me dinner I can't cook you dinner. I can't help you there. Yeah
Paul: But say you're at on a site that you have a 20 story building, right? Exactly Yeah, you can scan from the ground to the top and have the accuracy maintained at the top That's right now or you have
Nino: A very big atrium that you have to scan you know
Paul: something like our scanner can still probably capture some data points up there, but I would be slightly suspect if I'm measuring from the ground 20 floors up, right?
Paul: With the accuracy of the data that is captured. There is
Nino: another option. It's actually tying Paul to the a crane or something. That sounds like fun. Yeah, and let him just dangle, yeah dangle down with the scanner. No, not with the scanner, no. Let's just dangle him. The scanner's too expensive.
Nino: Jeez. I hadn't heard that.
Nick: I was looking at the specs for the fancy scanner and the fancy scanner. Yeah. And it looks like it also is a lot faster and it scans. So it can,
Paul: it's five, six times faster. So again, if you go out to a site, if it's a small site, we don't need it for a house.
Paul: Obviously, this is more than adequate for a house. But if it's a larger space, if it's a space with a, couple story atrium or again, like a multi floor building your speed instead of spending 12 hours on site, you're going to spend three hours on site, two hours on site. So
Nino: So it's a bigger project, 60K
Nick: Won't sound that horrible.
Nick: So when I'm in Hawaii and it only takes me a couple hours instead of all day, I'll have the whole rest of the day to go to the beach. Exactly. Exactly. That's how
Nino: you cook them at dinner. Yeah. We don't want you to
Paul: work 12 hours measuring with this guy. We want you to spend the 60K and spend two hours measuring and then go to the beach for the rest of the day.
Paul: Yeah. Thanks, Paul. Yeah. Better in every way, it's like the next, think of the, every time they release an iPhone, it's like a step better. So there were several years between when they released like the base level stuff to the next level up
Nick: And to be fair, as a business, we're looking at redundancies, right?
Nick: So I, Paul and I, you remember the story is last year, Paul and I are scanning at a house and it's a windy day. And Paul love physics and I know that when you open a tripod as wide as possible, it's as stable as possible. When you close it up a little skinnier, less sturdy. I have a tendency to fold, yeah.
Nick: Paul's a genius and I just, I don't understand why he likes the tiny face. You have to
Paul: go through doors.
Nick: All right, but we were outside.
Paul: After going through a door. All right, fair. Yeah. It's a windy day. And just in my defense too. So we go through, I put the thing down, right? And this is in the middle of Nick.
Paul: I don't know, having some discussion about some project. It's my fault, I distracted him. Hey, can we look this up? I need to look this up. I need to get back to the client, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sure, let me start this scan and let's look it up. I think I was on my phone looking something up on site with Nick.
Paul: And we saw it start tipping in the corner of our eye. And
Nick: literally my heart stopped. And I'm like, trying to
Nino: reach.
Paul: For whatever reason, and again, I don't know why you and I like you and I both walked away from it. Yeah. Several feet away from it. We
Nick: were nowhere near it. It landed very gently, like on a, like it didn't even fall all the way.
Nick: And it landed in some soft mud. Oh good. And we had
Paul: We had to adjust fiddle with the adapter, but other than that everything was
Nick: good. Couldn't believe it. But we do have insurance on it. But still if if a scanner goes out of commission, then how are we scanning our projects? Yeah. Good luck. We'd have to bring out the Matterport again, which, which would have been terrible,
Paul: but to be fair, the Matterport has also iterated, right? So yeah, But obviously it's we don't have to do
Nino: any like initial calibration or something like that with a scanner or
Paul: so every so often you do have to calibrate it.
Paul: So there is a calibration process, but it's not something you do yourself. That's something that you would say, Oh, I see what you're saying. They would clean it out and calibrate it and do whatever. But it's not. The thing is sealed up. It's, unless you're getting an error in your data or it'll tell you if there's some issue then you don't really need to send it off.
Paul: So it's every few years you do have to do some maintenance on it, but it's very minimal. It's a minimal. Yeah. So it's basically a high, highly accurate instrument and you can rely on it, pretty much every day, year round, unless it like starts to complain. So it's very rare that happens.
Nino: What I also saw, what I actually have experienced people doing when you're mentioning drones and stuff is like this thermal imaging cameras. They actually capturing the thermal performance of the buildings or a leakage and especially in today's world of the sustainability. Guys that rain is the number one enemy, like entering the building, but the second enemy is the air that actually out like a cause the building to not perform as tight as they need to be.
Nino: And these these new tools, especially using going to a flying drones, it can be really. Helpful to see where you're actually losing your energy and how your envelope performs. Absolutely. That's like a, probably one of the, when we, get a little bit higher in a more higher end commercial jobs that's one, one really neat tool that you can use.
Paul: There's other scanning like softwares. It's, I don't know. I don't know if you can call it scanning softwares, but it's it's like photo processing from like aerial images. So you can take your drone out. You can actually program it to. Fly a certain path and take certain photos at certain angles.
Paul: You can take all those photos in and the terminology of what it is, it's it basically takes the photos and it builds a 3D model. I can't think of the, it's for some reason it's eluding. Yeah, I know what you're talking, you know what I'm talking about. , there's a term for it.
Paul: It's created a 3D model
Nino: from the, actually from the, it's generated from the video. Yeah. Yeah. It's
Paul: generated from all the images. Yeah. And it from the images. Yeah. It can be a highly accurate, highly detailed. 3d model, you know captured from all these drone images that it basically processes
Nick: They have the scanner attachment that you can put on a drone, too So it'll fly around and scan those buildings as well
Paul: Yeah, but
Nick: vibrations.
Paul: Yeah, it's not They also have like handheld ones where you can walk through a space But again, like there's issues with like accuracy and some of this equipment is also Extremely
Nino: yeah. Yeah, that's true
Nick: So I guess let's wrap this up here. From An architecture firm standpoint, it really does benefit us on the side of accuracy and timing And also just communication with the team on the client side.
Nick: Go ahead. Did you want to say something?
Nino: No, I that's what I want to say benefits clients as well. Yeah. Yeah, because less surprises the better So those surprises in construction are usually is a cost item.
Nick: Absolutely after the facts and I also think like those are questions you can ask your design professional if you're the end user.
Nick: There's also a market for a lot of architecture firms themselves outsource this service, we do for architecture firms. So like we're able to travel and perform this service. For archetypes or firms, not necessarily someone who's looking just to do a design. So we can be B2B or B2C.
Nick: Yep. And by the way,
Paul: photogrammetry, that's what it is. That's how it's called. So it basically it's making the 3d model from the photos. And just so you know, we also have the ability with. All the point cloud data, we can take that and generate a 3d model, like with a surface autumn, somewhat like automated practice.
Paul: And then you could send it to a 3d printer and print it out or put it in your models or do whatever you can
Nick: make a little house on your 3d printer. Yeah. I was curious, what is one of those machines cost to give you a price? For what? The photo Oh, it's software. The geometry, whatever it is. It's
Paul: software.
Paul: It's any drone. You just have your pictures. You could even do it if you have a statue on the ground. As long as you take enough photos from all angles. Yeah, I saw that. All around. I actually
Nino: can just hover over to your phone. Yeah. Around the object and can actually create 3D model.
Nino: I've had to do renderings
Paul: before where there was, like, a park with a sculpture. And the client wanted to see an image from the park of his building, and they wanted this stupid sculpture, and it was like some modern art. It is ugly in my opinion, but not It's a modern, come on. But not easy to model.
Paul: I couldn't just model it. Oh yeah. And we didn't have a laser scanner or something, where I could just scan it and like put it in there and fake it. And then I couldn't get the, he wanted, he was so specific about this angle that he wanted. So it's great. And I couldn't really match it to a photo cause there was stuff that was in the way.
Paul: So I had to go out and take a ton of photos and basically plug it into the software. I made a 3d model and then in the software I like deleted the trees so that I could get the view that he wanted. It's okay, here you go, buddy. But yeah, I'm powerful stuff. It's just software that you plug it into.
Paul: Yeah.
Nick: Great. Hey, this was fun. That was fun. I think this is good. Good information. I guess we'll keep you posted on if we get that, that 60, 000 one. Yeah. All right.
Nino: That cooks dinner.
Nick: That cooks dinner for me. Yeah. All right. We'll stop there, guys. Thanks for joining us. And that's a wrap.
Paul: This has been the ARC Fluence podcast.
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